The big interview
Does Donald Trump make you angry, Jane Goodall?
She became world-famous as an ape researcher and changed the world as an activist: Jane Goodall (90) spoke to Conny Bischofberger in November 2004 about praying chimpanzees, irresponsible politicians and her relentless fight to protect our planet.
She is a speck in the gigantic Max Reinhardt Library at Schloss Leopoldskron in Salzburg: surrounded by the dark wood of the book walls and the gilded columns, Jane Goodall sits under the magnificent mirrored vault in a leather-upholstered armchair. The Englishwoman holds a cup of tea in her left hand. The floor lamp casts a warm light on her face, which is framed by white hair.
"I'm not often in such unique places," she says, looking around her. Her voice sounds quiet, almost a little tired. This makes the 90-year-old listen all the more attentively. Later this week, the animal behavior researcher and environmental activist will visit the Konrad Lorenz Research Center in Grünau im Almtal and plant a "tree of hope" (as reported by Die Krone). According to the Jane Goodall Institute Austria, no visit to Austria is planned for 2025, so this may be her last for a long time.
"Krone": Mrs. Goodall, who is that little guy in front of you on the table? -(A toy chimpanzee is sitting next to the pot of tea.)
Jane Goodall: That's Mr. H. He's 33 years old. He's well-traveled, you must know. Mr. H. has been to 63 countries with me. He is very famous.
How did he come to you?
A man called Gary Horn gave him to me. Gary went blind when he was 21. That's when he decided to become a magician. Everyone said: You can't be a magician if you're blind! But he's so good that the children don't even notice that he can't see. He also dives and goes skydiving. His credo is: "Something can always go wrong in life, we never know. But if it does, don't give up, because there's always a way forward." (Jane Goodall takes the chimpanzee in her arms and smiles at the camera)
The little one is also a symbol of your life's work. You lived in the jungles of Tanzania in the 1960s and discovered during your observations that wild chimpanzees make and use tools. Why was that such a sensation?
Well, until then, the use of tools was something that was reserved for humans. The chimpanzees with their tools have shown us how incredibly arrogant we humans have been to think we are so special. In truth, we are very similar. This opened the way to understanding all other animals better, their amazing intelligence.
What have you personally learned from chimpanzees?
The most fascinating thing was that they are particularly supportive, helpful and caring. When a child is orphaned, other parents adopt it and raise it. So I learned how important a close group of two to three people around a child up to the age of two or three is - for chimpanzees and for humans. Sometimes I wonder if I learned that from the chimpanzees or from my own mother - I don't know.
Chimpanzees show us how incredibly arrogant we humans are to think we are so special. In truth, we are very similar.
Jane Goodall bewundert die erstaunliche Intelligenz der Tiere.
How often do you still visit 'your' chimpanzees in Tanzania?
I go back twice a year, but only for a few days. The chimpanzees I knew really well have already died. There's only one left that knows me, and I know her.
What's her name?
Her name is "Gremlin". The last time I was there was in July. She actually came to my house, like other chimpanzees. "Fifi" always came, "Olly" also showed up when I arrived. "Gremlin" led me on a beautiful walk up the river and showed me her youngest child. One is six years old, I already knew him. I hadn't met her youngest yet. He is two and his name is "Goodall". I call him "Goodally".
You once said that you observed chimpanzees at a lake that seemed to be meditating. Can these animals really do something like pray?
I don't think they pray. But they do what I call a waterfall dance. It is a performance. You have to imagine that the waterfall falls from a gorge over very hard rocks into a stream with stones. It makes a great noise. When the water falls, the air is displaced and a breeze blows. When the chimpanzees get close, they start to sway from one foot to the other, sometimes picking up stones and flinging them through the air. And at the end they sit down and you can see how their eyes follow the water. They have no words for it, the feeling is trapped inside them. If there were words for it, then you could certainly speak of an early animalistic religion. I think it must be based on a sense of wonder and awe, what is happening.
How do you communicate with them?
Chimpanzees communicate in the same way we do. With posture, gestures, body movements, kisses, hugs, holding hands, stroking each other. Today, I meet the chimpanzees in Gombe at a respectful distance and communicate through facial expressions and gestures. We humans can use words to talk about the past and the future, we can bring people together to solve problems. Chimpanzees can't do that.
After your time as a researcher, you became an activist and have been fighting to protect the planet for almost 40 years. How is it doing?
Very, very badly. Habitats are being willfully destroyed. Creatures are dying as a result of pollution. The oceans are suffering from overfishing. There is trophy hunting and the bushmeat trade in Africa - where wild animals are killed just to be eaten. There is a terrible cruelty to animals all over the world.
How do you cope emotionally with being constantly confronted with this?
By not stopping fighting against it. As long as I live, I will fight.
It must be very exhausting ...
Yes, sometimes I'm very, very tired.
What gives you hope?
The young people. Our "Roots & Shoots" project is available in 71 countries. Children and young people can contact the Jane Goodall Institute if they want to raise money for an endangered species or plant trees, for example. A generation is growing up with a love of nature and a desire to treat it with respect and compassion. They are working to make the world a better place for people, animals and the environment. As long as these young people exist, there is still hope.
Around the world at 90
Born Valerie Jane Morris-Goodall in London on April 3, 1934. Her childhood dream was to travel to Africa and observe animals there. When she was 26, she began researching the behavior of chimpanzees in what is now Tanzania. The primatologist and animal behavior researcher is now world-famous.
From the 1980s onwards, she traveled the world as an activist. In 1991, she founded the "Roots & Shoots" project, which supports children and young people in becoming active for the environment.
The staunch vegetarian turned 90 last April. She gives lectures around the world, visits events, zoos and congresses and meets celebrities and decision-makers from politics and business. Jane Goodall is a board member of countless associations, and more than 40 universities have awarded her an honorary doctorate. She is also a "Dame of the British Empire" and a UN Messenger of Peace. http://www.janegoodall.at
Isn't nature very resilient?
Yes, it is. If we give it a chance, it will regenerate and once again take over habitats that humans have already destroyed. Animals on the brink of extinction would also have a second chance. More and more people are beginning to think about ways in which we can live in harmony with nature. Thinking about what our decisions and actions do in our everyday lives.
Can the individual do anything at all?
Of course. By asking ourselves daily questions such as: "What am I buying? Where was it made? Has it harmed the environment? Was cruelty to animals involved? Is it cheap because of unfair wages, i.e. at the expense of other people?" When I think about it, I don't buy many things anymore.
But more expensive, but sustainable products?
Exactly. Because that also means that it is appreciated more and wasted less. That means a lot to me personally. I grew up during the Second World War, we didn't waste anything. Then I went to Tanzania. Nothing was wasted there either. But you know, today there are a lot of people who take prosperity and abundance for granted.
Our planet is in a very, very bad state. There is terrible cruelty towards animals all over the world.
Die Aktivistin will trotzdem weiterkämpfen bis zuletzt.
But that alone will not save the earth from destruction. What else needs to happen?
We need to try to elect people into governments who actually care about the future of our planet. And that doesn't seem to be happening. That is very worrying.
Yes. The Greens are losing elections all over Europe right now, even though they are addressing key issues like the climate crisis.
Well, there just aren't enough of them. In a way, they are taking votes away from those candidates who might also care about the environment. That's the problem. The Greens need to build alliances.
What would you do if you could rule the world for a day?
I would immediately stop all oil and gas extraction, drilling and fracking and all those things. I would immediately ban industrial agriculture with its use of pesticides, herbicides and monocultures. I would work hard to alleviate poverty, because poor people destroy their environment in order to survive and earn some money. I would tax the super rich. It's ridiculous that the richest people pay the least tax. And I would use government funds to support everything that has to do with creating a cleaner and more sustainable world. But that might be a bit much for one day. (Laughs.)
Which powerful people would you still like to meet?
I think I've already met everyone I've wanted to meet.
Donald Trump, for example?
I wonder if it would be worth meeting some more of those who, in my opinion, are behaving irresponsibly towards the future. I'm pretty sure Trump wouldn't listen to me. You only have to listen to some of his speeches on climate action to realize that.
Does Trump make you angry?
Yes! He also blathered on about criminal Haitians stealing people's pets and allegedly eating dogs and cats, which is demonstrably untrue. I can still get upset about that! This man has divided the country, it's really scary.
He sold burgers at McDonald's during the election campaign.
Good for him!(Stifles a laugh.) If he wanted to prove he could work, he should have gone out to fix drains after the floods caused by climate change.
I hate flying, it's very bad for the environment. I wish someone would give me a flying carpet.
Jane Goodall ist sich ihres ökologischen Fußbabdrucks bewusst.
You turned 90 in April. What would you like to have achieved by the end of your life?
I've already achieved it with "Roots & Shoots". A new generation of responsible young people is growing up here, and I continue to support them with all my strength. Some of them are already in decision-making positions and we need many more of them! They all know that we humans are part of nature, not separate from it. There is not much more I could do. Although it would be nice to stop the cruelty and end these heinous wars.
Never thought about retirement?
No, that's not an option. The time will come when my body will retire. I don't hear as well anymore and I don't walk as briskly. But hopefully my mind can carry on.
Where will your next trip take you?
I'll tell you where I'm going before Christmas. Geneva, Berlin, five days at home, India, China, Hong Kong, Singapore, Nepal, Malaysia, New York.
Oh my God.
I had to get used to it too. I hate flying, it's very bad for the environment. I wish someone would give me a flying carpet. But unfortunately that hasn't happened yet.
Your ecological footprint must be huge.
Yes, that's true. At the same time, we have already planted hundreds of millions of trees in our project areas and with "Roots & Shoots". And every time I give a talk, someone comes up to me and says: "You've changed my life today."
Ever used private jets?
I've been offered that again and again by millionaire friends. But I turn them down. I only let myself fly once because it was the only way to get from A to B.
What was that about?
It was quite a long time ago. I think it was a very short flight to a university that awarded me an honorary degree. Now I remember: it was a flight in a helicopter.
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